Cynnwys
Contents

3....... Cyflwyniadau, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datganiadau o Fuddiant
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

10..... Trafod Busnes Cynnar
Discussion of Early Business

33..... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod ar 13 Gorffennaf
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting on 13 July

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included.

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance
Jayne Bryant Bywgraffiad\|Biography	Llafur Labour
Vikki Howells Bywgraffiad\|Biography	Llafur Labour
Huw Irranca-Davies Bywgraffiad\|Biography	Llafur Labour
David Melding Bywgraffiad\|Biography	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives
Jenny Rathbone Bywgraffiad\|Biography	Llafur Labour
Mark Reckless Bywgraffiad\|Biography	UKIP Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) UKIP Wales (Committee Chair)
Simon Thomas Bywgraffiad\|Biography	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance
Alun Davidson	Clerc Clerk
Lisa Salkeld	Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol Legal Adviser
Nia Seaton	Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service
Adam Vaughan	Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30.
The meeting began at 09:30.

Cyflwyniadau, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datganiadau o Fuddiant
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

[1] Mark Reckless: Bore da, good morning. Welcome to the first meeting of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee of the fifth Assembly. We have bilingual facilities at the meeting, so, if translation from Welsh to English is required, it is on channel 1 of these headphones, and then amplification is on channel 2 if needed. I’d be grateful if people can ensure that their mobile phones are off or set to ‘silent’. In the event of a fire alarm, of course, follow directions from the ushers.

[2] Thank you all for coming. I’ve received apologies from Sian Gwenllian, who will not be here this morning, but I think, otherwise, we have a full house. So, thank you all for making it on time, particularly in light of the result of the match last night. I think I had the quickest ever drive in from Caerphilly to Cardiff, so I’m not sure there are quite as many people on the roads this morning as usual.

[3] I was planning to begin, really, by asking staff and Members to introduce themselves and, with Members in particular, if there’s anything in your background of particular relevance to the committee or what you’d like the committee to achieve, please do share that.

[4] I, myself, grew up between farms in Somerset, so I recognise the unique agriculture that we have in Wales and the differences, but I have seen how agriculture has progressed and changed over a number of decades, so I have an interest in that in particular. In all areas of the committee’s purview, I’m very keen that we should emphasise an evidence-led approach, and, as Chairman of the committee, I will seek to represent the views of the committee as a whole, rather than my own or still less those of my party.

[5] Perhaps I could start with staff members. I think it would be useful just to know people’s names as well as the role that we can see, and then perhaps if I go around Members and just ask people to make a brief introduction. Thank you.

[6] Ms Seaton: Good morning. My name is Nia Seaton and I’m a senior research officer in the Research Service, here to provide research support to the committee and I’m joined by my colleagues, Chloe Corbyn and Elfyn Henderson who have similar roles.

[7] Ms Salkeld: I’m Lisa Salkeld and I’m one of the legal advisers who support the committee.

[8] Mr Davidson: I’m Alun Davidson. I’m the clerk to the committee, so I head up an integrated team of staff to provide support to the committee.

[9] Mr Vaughan: I’m Adam Vaughan. I’m the deputy clerk, so I work with Alun and my colleague, the second clerk, Cath Hunt behind me.

[10] Mark Reckless: Jayne.

[11] Jayne Bryant: I’m Jayne Bryant. I’m the Assembly Member for Newport West. Do you want me to elaborate on some of the issues?

[12] Mark Reckless: Yes. Anything in particular that you bring to the committee, or interests that particularly inform your interest in what we’ll be doing.

[13] Jayne Bryant: I’m particularly interested in renewable energy and the issues around climate change, and I have a particular interest in animal welfare as well.

[14] Vikki Howells: Good morning. My name is Vikki Howells. I’m the Assembly Member for Cynon Valley. I was recently elected to the Senedd for the first time in May. My background is in teaching, so I spent 16 years teaching at secondary level and that included geography at key stage 3 and key stage 4, including following the education for sustainable development and global citizenship framework at all levels. I feel that what that’s given me is a broad understanding and, perhaps, more importantly, a genuine passion in all areas of environmental issues, including climate change and sustainability.

[15] My constituency itself, while it’s traditionally perceived as being urban, actually, in reality, a quarter of it is comprised geographically of either farming communities around Penderyn and Rhigos, also the southernmost reaches of the Brecon Beacons National Park, and also large forestry areas managed by Natural Resources Wales. So, I’m really looking forward to working within the committee to address these broad areas of concern.

[16] Mark Reckless: Thank you. Huw.

[17] Huw Irranca-Davies: Morning, Chair. Huw Irranca-Davies, Assembly Member for Ogmore. Ogmore is a constituency with 40 per cent of upland hill farming, but it’s also an area, of course, where we’ve seen massive improvements in river and water quality and the return of invertebrates as well as fish and so on. So, my interest in this committee is something that stems from my role as a former environment Minister and as a shadow food and farming Minister as well, but also in my chairing of the similar committee, the parallel committee to this, in Westminster.

[18] So, I guess, without pre-empting anything that the committee might look at, I think this is an immensely powerful committee. It can go into an enormous number of areas, as befits not only its title, but its scope. So, under your stewardship, and with the thoughts of other committee members, I’m keen to see this committee flex its muscles and not be purely an environment or a rural affairs or an agricultural committee, but to be genuinely strategic on where it thinks it can apply most pressure, and to show leadership as well. But it’s a great committee and it’s a privilege to be on it.

[19] Mark Reckless: Thank you.

[20] Huw Irranca-Davies: By the way, the other thing is, from my perspective of coming down here from Westminster, it’s frequently been remarked by many of the witnesses who appeared before us on the leading role that both this committee and Welsh Government has played in terms of pushing the agenda on environmental matters—just out of interest.

[21] Jenny Rathbone: I’m Jenny Rathbone. I represent Cardiff Central, which is the only constituency that doesn’t have a farm—sadly, because I’m particularly interested in food. I served on the committee for the last two years of the fourth Assembly, and in that capacity I’m one of the authors of ‘A Smarter Energy Future for Wales’ and also the legacy report, which I think it’s important we don’t just put in the bin, and which is obviously based around expert witnesses in all areas. As the report says, climate change is the policy consideration through which all other policy areas need to be looked at.

[22] Mark Reckless: Thank you. Simon.

[23] Simon Thomas: Simon Thomas ydwyf i. Fi yw’r Aelod rhanbarthol dros Ganolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru, ond ces i fy ngeni yn Aberdare, ac rwy’n nabod Vikki yn iawn. Fi hefyd yw prif lefarydd Plaid Cymru ar y pwnc a’r materion hyn, yn ogystal ag ynni—nid wyf 100 y cant yn siŵr os yw ynni yn rhan o’r pwyllgor yma ai peidio; gawn ni weld wrth drafod, efallai.

Simon Thomas: I’m Simon Thomas. I’m the regional Member for Mid and West Wales, but I was born in Aberdare, and I know Vikki very well. I too am Plaid Cymru’s main spokesperson on this subject area, and also on energy, although I’m not entirely sure whether energy is part of this committee’s remit. We’ll see as discussions continue.

[24] Y prif ddiddordeb sydd gyda fi—rwyf wedi bod yn ymhél â gwleidyddiaeth amgylcheddol am dros 15 mlynedd. Fe fues i hefyd yn Aelod Seneddol yn San Steffan, ac yn aelod am bum mlynedd o’r pwyllgor yr oedd Huw yn gadeirydd arno fe yn y pen draw. Un o’r pethau y gwnes i ei ddysgu o’r pwyllgor hwnnw oedd y mwyaf strategol ac wedi ffocysu y gallwch chi fod, nid ar fanylion y polisi sydd yn cael ei ddarparu, ond pwrpas y polisi a’r adnoddau y mae’r Llywodraeth yn rhoi y tu ôl i’r polisi, ac felly allbwn y polisi hwnnw—dyna lle y byddwn i’n gobeithio y byddem ni’n gallu meithrin ein sgiliau ni fel pwyllgor, i wella’r ffordd yr ŷm ni’n ‘audit-io’, mewn ffordd, effaith polisïau amgylcheddol a chefn gwlad, ac yn arbennig newid hinsawdd, gan fod y Llywodraeth wedi cynnig, a bod y Cynulliad wedi cymeradwyo, Deddf Amgylchedd yn y Cynulliad diwethaf, sy’n gosod targedau penodol iawn ar gyfer newid hinsawdd. Felly, mae yna amcanion penodol gan y Llywodraeth, ac rwy’n credu bod dyletswydd arnom ni fel pwyllgor i ddal y Llywodraeth i gyfrif ar y pethau yna, ond hefyd i fod yn bont rhwng y gymuned ehangach y tu allan i’r Cynulliad a’r Llywodraeth a’r ffordd yr ŷm ni’n deddfu a gwneud polisi fan hyn.

My chief interest is—I have been interested in environmental policies for many years. I was also a Member of Parliament in Westminster and I was a member for five years of the committee that Huw eventually chaired. One of the things that I learned, I believe, from that committee, was that the more strategic and the more focused you can be, and rather than looking at the policy details that are provided, look at the intent of that policy, and the resources that the Government gives to support the policy, and therefore the output of that policy—that’s something where I hope we’ll be able to develop our skills as a committee so that we can improve the way that we audit, in a way, the impact of environmental and rural affairs, and climate change policy particularly, because the Government has proposed, and the Assembly passed, the Environment (Wales) Act in 2016, which sets very specific targets in relation to climate change. So the Government has very specific objectives, and I think it’s our responsibility as a committee to hold the Government to account on those matters, but also to be a bridge between the broader community outside the Assembly and the Government and the way that we legislate and make policy here.

[25] Rwyf hefyd yn Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid, felly mae gen i ddiddordeb mawr yn yr arian, a lle mae’r arian yn mynd y tu ôl i rai o’r polisïau yma hefyd.

I’m also the Chair of the Finance Committee, so I have a great interest in the money, and where the money lies behind many of these policies.

[26] Mark Reckless: Simon, thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship on the Finance Committee. My understanding is that we do encompass energy on this committee.

[27] Simon Thomas: Diolch.

[28] Mark Reckless: David.

[29] David Melding: Bore da, Gadeirydd.

David Melding: Good morning, Chair.

[30] I’m David Melding, and to my horror I realise I’m the only Member that has served since 1999. I have served for South Wales Central all that time, so I intend to make lots of boring interventions along the lines of, ‘We did it a different way before’, and stand up for our traditional working practices. Actually, I think what you’ve outlined, Chair, in terms of having a fact-based approach, is very, very welcome. As a, sort of, old-fashioned, Peelite Tory, I do believe facts ought to precede faith in politics.

[31] Simon Thomas: That’s well before 1999.

[32] David Melding: I thought a historical hero was appropriate because it’s not so controversial, given recent events, to pluck a more recent one. But I do wish you well as Chair. I think you’ve set the right tone in saying that. I’ve also noticed that, in your contributions in Plenary, you’re very keen to uphold the rights and privileges of us as a legislature and I think that the committee does need to work like that and rise above, as much as possible, partisanship so that, for the public good, we scrutinise Government and also praise it when it’s doing things well, and try to improve the legislation that comes before us.

[33] I noticed, in the legacy report, that it urges post-legislative scrutiny, given that there were three very substantial pieces of legislation in this area in the fourth Assembly: the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, the Planning Act (Wales) 2015 and the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, and I’m sure that we will focus on those.

[34] On my past interest and experience, I’ve really only ever served on a committee that dealt with energy issues, which was in the third Assembly, but it is an interest that I’ve maintained. I’m glad that we still have that policy area, because I’ve read ‘A Smarter Energy Future for Wales’ report, so I’m glad that that investment now will potentially have some reward. So, I think energy issues will be key.

[35] I’ve also taken an interest in the marine environment. I’ve long believed that we should be more aware of the wonderful resource that we have. The Irish Sea is Europe’s Chesapeake Bay and those of us who love shellfish will often be very frustrated that, in Ashton fish market, you’ll get Canadian or American lobster more likely than one from Pembrokeshire, and there are issues around there. Europe’s finest mussel beds, as people should know if they don’t already, are off Anglesey. So, there are lots of things, I think, in this portfolio that will cause us some genuine interest and will have a genuine return for the benefit of the people of Wales.

[36] Mark Reckless: Thank you. Can I just ask, has everybody had a copy of our legacy report from the fourth Assembly circulated to them? Excellent. Also the ‘smarter energy’ report—Jenny drew my attention to that and I’m now reading it.

[37] Just one other area that we really should emphasise: I know that other members of the committee won’t share my enthusiasm about the result of the vote two weeks ago, but I do know that, for this committee, the policy areas that we are responsible for overviewing are perhaps more integrated than those of any other committee with the European Union, as it’s developed. Therefore, I think that (a) that implies quite a heavy work programme in scrutinising where we go in those areas, but (b) I think, quite unusually, there may be the opportunity of looking at policy areas from first principles; for instance, what system of agricultural support do we think we should establish for Wales, and I think that’s quite unusual for a committee. The First Minister has emphasised that there’s going to be no UK agricultural or, for that matter, fisheries policy, and on a number of the other areas where we’ve got a strong devolution position. So, therefore, we may just want to step back a bit more than a committee might otherwise do in order to look at things from the foundation up, rather than simply look at evolutionary change to the existing settlement.

09:43

Trafod Busnes Cynnar
Discussion of Early Business

[38] Mark Reckless: Moving on to the paper that’s been circulated by the Clerk, there’s one clear issue of principle that it draws to our attention, which is the one of setting strategic objectives. One critique of committees not just in this place and in the Scottish Parliament, but in Westminster and elsewhere, has been that, in an understandable enthusiasm to push on with business, it’s been quite usual for committees quickly to identify a whole series of inquiries that they want to do. One potential drawback of that approach is that while the committee decides quickly what areas it wants to look at, thought is not given so much to how the committee wants to operate and what its objectives are: what does it want to achieve over the course of the, in our case, Assembly, for now? I just wondered whether committee members agreed with the thrust of that paper—that while there are some matters that are pressing, for example, we have short-term invitations to respond to with the whole issue of agriculture post Brexit and also we just need to make some initial steps to establish relations with stakeholders in the climate change field and other committees with which we will have to discuss how we interface.

09:45

[39] Beyond that, do committee members agree with the general thrust of the paper that we should have a strategic planning session? Potentially, we may be able to get the Institute for Government to help facilitate that with us. Is that a sensible thing to do before deciding a significant number of inquiries that would be our priority to undertake? What are Members’ views about that?

[40] David Melding: I’m happy to start, then, if no-one else wants to. I think it’s very well considered and it is what we should do. You’ve already indicated your big issue that is likely to be faced is what sort of income support arrangements will be agreed for agriculture. Will that be at a Welsh level or an England-and-Wales level or potentially a UK level? I think these are very, very important questions. It’s okay to sketch out some possible inquiry areas, because we can probably agree on some of the other likely major issues, but I think you are right that you need flexibility. A particular issue may come forward to be much more urgent or strategically important and the ramifications require immediate attention. So, I do think it’s useful having an idea of the sort of subject areas we might be looking at in the future, but not to be tied too closely to them. I think that makes sense.

[41] I like the idea of having an away day or a couple of days away in Pembrokeshire. I notice the dates are to be confirmed and it might possibly be held in the recess. I’m not quite sure how much we’re going to go into when we’ll meet, but I would have trouble meeting in the week before because I have already got a commitment up in Scotland, which would mean I would have to miss part of that if we did it on the Thursday and Friday of the preceding week. But I do think it’s a very good idea, and I think it’s excellent to use the Wales Governance Centre as well.

[42] Mark Reckless: The Institute for Government is the think tank that’s done a lot in this work area—

[43] David Melding: Oh, sorry.

[44] Mark Reckless: It may be that the Wales Governance Centre—[Inaudible.]—a contribution as well.

[45] David Melding: [Inaudible.]—or both, that’s fine.

[46] Mark Reckless: Do other Members have a view on that principle of strategic planning preceding agreement on a significant number of inquiry areas?

[47] Huw Irranca-Davies: It’s the right way to proceed. Absolutely.

[48] Mark Reckless: Simon.

[49] Simon Thomas: Byddwn i’n hapus iawn i gynllunio yn y modd sy’n cael ei awgrymu. Byddwn i’n licio trafod bach mwy ynglŷn â bod i ffwrdd am ddau ddiwrnod achos mae eisoes ymrwymiadau etholaeth a mis Medi eisoes yn dechrau llenwi, er bod sir Benfro yn fy rhanbarth i, felly mae’n bosib iawn y bydd hynny’n aros.

Simon Thomas: I would be very happy to plan in the way that’s being suggested. I’d like to discuss a little bit more about being away for two days, because I have already got constituency commitments and they’re starting to fill the diary, even though Pembrokeshire is in my region, so it’s possible that that would be suitable.

[50] Un peth: nid wyf yn gwybod pa mor fanwl rydych eisiau dechrau trafod pethau’n awr, ond nawr ein bod wedi cadarnhau bod ynni yn dal yn rhan o’r pwyllgor yma, un peth sydd ar goll yn y rhagflas sydd gennym yma yw dilyn i fyny ar yr adroddiad ‘Smarter Energy’ a gweld a oes pethau penodol y gallwn eu gyrru drwyddo gyda hynny. Gall hynny fod yn rhan o’r drafodaeth, wrth gwrs, yn y diwrnod cynllunio.

One thing: I don’t know in how much detail you want to discuss it now, but now that we have confirmed that energy is still part of this committee, one issue that’s missing in this is following up on the ‘Smarter Energy’ report and seeing whether there are specific things that we could drive through with that. This, of course, could be part of the discussion in the planning day.

[51] Yr ail peth, jest i nodi nawr, er fy mod i’n cytuno’n llwyr bod angen edrych ar bolisi amaeth yn sgil y penderfyniad yn y refferendwm, ac wrth gwrs er bod y Llywodraeth ei hun wedi dweud eu bod nhw eisiau datblygu polisi penodol i Gymru ar gyfer amaeth a physgodfeydd, rwyf hefyd yn meddwl y dylem ni fel pwyllgor efallai edrych ar y peth o’r pen arall. Hynny yw, mae’r arian sy’n cael ei galw yn bolisi amaeth cyffredin, a dweud y gwir, mae tua hanner o’r arian yna yn cael ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer polisïau amgylcheddol ehangach, eco-services, cefnogi—ie, mae lot ohono fe’n cael ei wyro drwy’r amaethwyr fel taw nhw yw gwarchodwyr cefn gwlad, ond mae llawer ohono ef at bwrpas, nid pwrpas cynhyrchu bwyd, ond at bwrpas arall. Felly, mae gennym ni, efallai, fel pwyllgor, rôl wahanol i’w chwarae wrth ddod â fe o’r pen yna. Fel rydych yn ei ddweud, mae’n rhaid inni ofyn cwestiynau sylfaenol erbyn hyn. Mae yna £260 miliwn y flwyddyn yn cael ei wario yn y maes yma yng Nghymru. Beth yw pwrpas y gwariant yna? Beth rydym yn ceisio ei gyflawni drwy hynny? A beth yw effeithiau y gwriant yn y ffordd mae wedi cael ei gyfeirio hyd yma?

Secondly, just to note now, even though I totally agree that there is a need to look at agricultural policy as a result of the decision in the referendum, and the Government itself has said they want to develop a specific policy for Wales in terms of agriculture and fisheries, I think we, as a committee, should look at it from the other end. That is, the money that is called the common agricultural policy, in reality, about half of that money is used for broader environmental policies, eco-services, supporting—yes, a lot of it is directed through farmers as if they are the guardians of rural areas, but a lot of it is for a purpose, not for the purpose of food production, but for another purpose. We, as a committee, therefore, perhaps have a different role to play in bringing it in from that direction. As you say, we must now ask fundamental questions. Some £260 million a year is spent in this area in Wales. What is the purpose of that expenditure? What are we trying to achieve with that? And what are the effects of the expenditure in the way it has been spent thus far?

[52] Os ydym ni yn mynd i sir Benfro, rwy’n hapus iawn i drafod polisi môr, achos mae hynny o ddiddordeb mawr i fi hefyd, ond rwyf hefyd yn meddwl bod gyda chi yn sir Benfro enghraifft berffaith o’r dilema yma sy’n cael ei yrru gan arian cyhoeddus a pholisi amaethyddol yn cyfarfod gyda’r parthau nitradau sydd ar gael yn sir Benfro, ac felly mae gyda ni enghraifft ar y stepen ddrws, os ydym ni’n mynd y ffordd yna, o rywbeth gallwn ni edrych arno sydd yn crisialu i fi yr holl broblemau a’r pethau sydd yn gwrthddweud ei gilydd mewn polisi cyhoeddus.

If we’re going to Pembrokeshire, I’m very happy to discuss marine policy, because that is of great interest to me as well, but I also think that, in Pembrokeshire, you have a perfect example of this dilemma driven by public money and agricultural policy meeting the nitrate zones that exist in Pembrokeshire, and so we have an example on the doorstep of something that we could look at that crystallises for me all of the problems and the issues that conflict in public policy.

[53] Huw Irranca-Davies: If I could just add to that, I agree entirely with what Simon’s saying, it’s the wider issue of the funding, but also then what the post-Brexit vision of Welsh Government is, not simply for agriculture, but for rural communities as well. We’re certainly in a situation where, in my constituency, we’ve just announced a programme of grants of up to £100,000 under the rural development scheme, which was much criticised in some quarters for allocating more of the pillar 2 towards that than they did in England and so on and so forth, but, actually, it’s significant investment in my rural communities. And I think the same could be replicated across Wales. So, I would agree with the idea that we shouldn’t focus purely on, important as it is, agriculture and agricultural subsidies, but the wider impact on rural communities.

[54] The other thing is that I think it’s the right thing to focus now on that rural development/agricultural policy post Brexit, but it’s just a word of caution in that I’m not quite sure yet that we can see exactly, bearing in mind the wider political context at the moment, quite what that post Brexit looks like. So, we have to be slightly flexible. I’d be wary of coming up with a scheme that says, ‘Here is our alternative scheme post Brexit’, but I think it is the right time to explore what the options may be and what the different scenarios may be; it may be of assistance to the Government. But I’d be worried about coming up with something that is wholly prescriptive, that we take a leap in the dark to say, ‘This is exactly where we’re going to be and the solutions to it.’ But I think we could do a good job of exploring the options for people to give some reassurance that there’s good thought going into it, but it has to be on wider rural development and rural communities as well as agriculture.

[55] Mark Reckless: So, an emphasis on the principles underlying agriculture and rural development should be there in the title.

[56] Huw Irranca-Davies: Yes, indeed.

[57] Mark Reckless: Jenny.

[58] Jenny Rathbone: There’s no doubt that the rural development plan was prescient in foreseeing the gradual wind-down of the pillar 1 payments, but obviously nobody envisaged, or few of us envisaged, that it was going to happen this quickly. So, I think it’d be quite important to look at the rural development programme as it’s been currently framed to see whether it’s fit for purpose for the new circumstances.

[59] I think we need to put the emphasis on sustainability in everything we do, because, obviously, there are so many things up in the air as a result of the referendum vote. I’m concerned on the specifics; I think it’s very important that we do go to Pembrokeshire, but I suppose I’m reluctant to see us go there and have a meeting that we could be having in Cardiff, and, therefore, I think we have to be very focused on what we want to achieve if we’re going to Pembrokeshire, and, if we’re going for two days, I think there are some other really important issues happening in Pembrokeshire that I would want to look at: no. 1, it’s a very good place to look at food policy and food security in the light of Brexit, because there’s an interesting, viable, vibrant agricultural sector in Pembrokeshire.

[60] Secondly, there are two renewable energy schemes that are on the rocks at the moment in Pembrokeshire, which have been kicked out by the local authority, so I’d be very keen to understand a bit more about why that is, in the light of the need for us to generate, to expand our economy. And the third thing is that there’s been a raging debate about housing in Pembrokeshire on the back of the ‘hobbit’ house, and how we create affordable housing for people across our country without, obviously, compromising our environmental commitments. So, those are things I’d want to pick up on, if at all possible, during our trip to Pembrokeshire, rather than—. It’s nice to have an away day, a strategic planning session, but I’m not sure that it’s right to be using the time in Pembrokeshire for that when we could be doing that here.

[61] Mark Reckless: Can I just give some—? Sorry, Vikki.

[62] Vikki Howells: I think that it’s really important for us to get out and to meet with stakeholders so that we can really establish some clear objectives, in line with what everyone else has said. But I’d just like to draw attention to the fact that, prior to the scheduled proposed visit to Pembrokeshire, the Royal Welsh Show would really be an ideal opportunity for us to consult with a broad range of stakeholders.

[63] Mark Reckless: Just by way of background to the Pembrokeshire proposal, firstly, it is tentative and no more than a discussion with Members. Second, an organisation, Wales Environment Link, who really integrate a number of the non-governmental organisations in this area, have invited us. That would really I think be for sort of a one day focused on marine issues, and would be going out on a boat and site visits, rather than substantive committee proceedings. Whether or not we seek to combine that with a strategic planning session is entirely for Members; there is either that option of making that a two-day away day, including a strategic planning session, or we can separately timetable a strategic planning meeting in Cardiff, as Jenny suggests.

[64] Jenny Rathbone: Could I pick up on that and say I’m not arguing against the two-day session? I’m just saying that we might want to use our time better in Pembrokeshire, because there’s a huge amount of resource involved in travelling to and from Pembrokeshire. So, you know, if we’re going for two days I think there are other things I’d want to do rather than discuss our strategic objectives.

[65] Simon Thomas: It’s not so much travelling for some of us.

[66] Jenny Rathbone: I appreciate that. [Laughter.]

[67] Simon Thomas: We’re not all in Cardiff.

[68] David Melding: I don’t want to be contrary, but, in my experience, if you want real, deep strategic thinking, using the Institute for Government, and I would say also the Wales Governance Centre—they do work together, I understand—it’s usually much easier to do that if you’re away from here. I know what happens—you meet here, right, you’re up in your office, you’re being contacted and you don’t have the same focus. You know, it’s how much we want to invest in this. I think the Chair is hoping that we will really set the direction for much of this Assembly in terms of the approach we want to take, not the specifics necessarily in terms of the inquiry, but the approaches we want to take. And I really do think it’s worth an investment of being away, and perhaps—. I don’t mind going and seeing something specific like the marine side, but, if we have a long list of other very worthy things to see, then that’s all we’ll do, and I think we’ve got to make a decision—do we need that strategic thinking? It’s not as if we’re going to do it every six months, is it, in a nice bucolic part of Wales. I think it will be worth the investment of going away. I would not do it here; I think there are problems, in my experience, when that’s been done. If we do it in Cardiff, at least do it outside this building. There is an option like that, of course.

[69] Mark Reckless: I wonder, particularly if we were to involve the Wales Governance Centre as well as the Institute for Government—who I’m not aware of having premises or a focus here—would the way to do this be to maintain the Pembrokeshire look at marine sort of options with the group that’s invited us on the Thursday, perhaps ask the clerk to look at other things that we might do in other areas in Pembrokeshire on the Friday, but to come back to a further committee meeting for people to see what those options are, and whether that’s something they want to give the time commitment to, while looking separately at the strategic planning, and perhaps do that in Cardiff, but not at the Assembly, on a different date. Would that be the closest to a consensus amongst Members?

[70] David Melding: If we’re outside this building, that’s fine, but if we’re in here we’ll still be doing our day to day work here a bit, I think.

[71] Simon Thomas: Rwy’n cytuno gyda David; mae’n llawer mwy effeithiol i fod tu allan i’r adeilad yma os ydych chi’n mynd i gymryd prynhawn i gynllunio’n strategol. Ac rwy’n cofio, actually, bod y pwyllgor y bues i arno yn San Steffan wedi gwneud hynny; aethom ni i rywle yn Sussex—Duw a ŵyr ble—back of beyond i mi, ond wedyn rwy’n dod o Aberystwyth.

Simon Thomas: I agree with David; it’s much more efficient if we’re outside the building if we’re going to take an afternoon for strategic planning. And I remember, actually, that a committee that I was once on in Westminster did that; I don’t remember where we went, somewhere in Sussex—God knows where—it was the back of beyond for me, but then I’m from Aberystwyth.

10:00

[72] Ond roedd hi’n dda iawn i’r pwyllgor allu ddod at ei gilydd i weld beth oedd yn cael ei rannu ar y cyd a beth oedd yn achosi anghytuno, efallai. Fe fedrwch chi siarad yn fwy plaen mewn sefyllfa fel yna hefyd, ynglŷn â beth rydych chi’n moyn i’r pwyllgor ei gyflawni. Ond os ydym ni’n mynd i wneud hynny y tu allan i’r adeilad, man a man i ni ei wneud e wrth inni fynd i rywle arall yng Nghymru, rwy’n teimlo. Felly, os ydym ni am fynd i sir Benfro, man a man inni gynnwys hynny yn y cyd-destun yna. Ond, rwy’n meddwl bod modd, gyda’r profiad sydd o gwmpas y ford, inni wneud hynny mewn prynhawn o gynllunio strategol; nid wy’n meddwl bod angen diwrnod cyfan i wneud hynny. Mae modd, felly, i gyfuno hynny gydag elfennau eraill o naill ai ddiwrnod neu ddau ddiwrnod i ffwrdd.

But it was very good to be able to work collegiately as a committee so that we could see what was shared jointly and what caused disagreement, perhaps. You can speak more plainly in a situation such as that, for instance, about what you want the committee to achieve. But if we’re going to do that outside the building, I would say we might as well do it when we go somewhere else in Wales. Those are my feelings. So, if we’re going to go to Pembrokeshire, we might as well include that in that context. But, I do believe that, surely, with the experience around the table, it is possible for us to do that in an afternoon of strategic planning; I don’t think we need an entire day to do that. So, it would be possible to combine that with the other elements of a day or two days away.

[73] Nid wy’n siŵr os byddwn i, er enghraifft, am dreulio diwrnod cyfan ar bolisi morol. Mae hynny jest oherwydd fy mod i wedi ymweld sawl gwaith â’r ardaloedd yna i drafod ynni morol a’r amgylchedd morol, ac rwyf wedi bod mas ar gwch sawl gwaith yn edrych ar yr amgylchedd morol. Ond, mae yn fy rhanbarth i, felly byddwn i ddim am wneud hynny, ond efallai bod aelodau eraill o’r pwyllgor yn teimlo’n wahanol. Ond rwy’n credu—jest i godi rhai o’r pwyntiau roedd Jenny wedi eu codi—efallai nad oes modd gwneud popeth mewn un diwrnod yn sir Benfro, ond rwy’n meddwl, o edrych ar yr adroddiad ynni, fod sir Benfro yn arwain y ffordd o ran ynni morol hefyd. Felly, os ydych yn edrych ar bolisi cadwraeth morol, fedrwch chi ddim really edrych ar hynny heb ystyried pa effaith—da neu ddrwg—a pha bethau positif a fyddai’n dod mas o gynhyrchu ynni yn y môr, sy’n digwydd nawr yn sir Benfro hefyd. Felly, mae yna agweddau eraill. Mae yna ffordd, yn sicr, i gyfiawnhau dau ddiwrnod, ond byddwn i jest eisiau bod yn glir pa bynciau rydym ni’n mynd i’w cyfro a faint o amser rydym yn mynd i’w neilltuo i’r cynllunio hefyd.

I’m not sure whether I, for instance, would want to spend an entire day focusing on marine policy. That may just be because I have visited those areas many times and discussed marine energy and the marine environment, and I’ve been out on a boat several times looking at the marine environment. But, then, it’s in my region, so I might not wish to do that, but other members of the committee might feel differently. But, I do believe—just to look at some of the points that Jenny raised—while it might not be possible for us to do everything in one day in Pembrokeshire, I do think, having looked at the energy report, that energy in Pembrokeshire is extremely important because Pembrokeshire is a leader in the area of marine energy. So, if you’re looking at marine safeguarding policy, you can’t really look at that without considering what impact—good or bad—and what positive things have come out of the developments of marine energy that are happening in Pembrokeshire at present. So, there are other aspects. It’s certainly possible to justify two days, but I want us to be clear about what subjects we’ll be covering and how much time will be set aside for planning, too.

[74] David Melding: You could have the planning bit done—obviously we’d all be together for the strategic bit—and I know the clerk will probably be horrified with what I’m going to suggest, but you might have more than one offer for the ‘go out and see something in action’. So, some of us could see the marine stuff, and Jenny might want to go and see, on the environmental side, the latest houses and all the issues there, and someone might want to go and see organic farming, or whatever. That would be possible, perhaps.

[75] Huw Irranca-Davies: I don’t think it ought to be discounted, I just wonder whether, if we are going away—and I think it’s a great idea to do that, even though we need downtime as well at some point to relax and meet each other, talk and get to know each other as well, there may be also something that could be done in the evening as well. I know that Jenny was talking about issues around protected food status and so on, and it might well be that an early-evening stakeholder dinner to talk it over would be a nice way to deal with an item like that and discuss it informally as well. But, yes, that idea—. I certainly agree with you, I wouldn’t necessarily want to do two, three or four hours in one block on one thing, based on where I’ve come from, but, snappy, intensive engagement on subject areas, the key areas that we need to look at, I think, is the way to piece this together.

[76] Mark Reckless: Could I propose as a way forward, then—and we’ve still got quite a long lead time to plan this—that we look at doing a trip to Pembrokeshire on Thursday and Friday, 21 and 22 September; we press Wales Environment Link quickly for greater clarity on what programme they propose, and we can feed back as to whether that’s something we want to do, or if there are any elements we’re not so sure about; we contact the Institute for Government about those dates, and look at at least half a day within those two days for strategic planning; and that Members who have other ideas of what we might do in Pembrokeshire, ideally attached to a particular visit or organisation that they think might work for the committee, individually contact the clerk with those proposals and contact details, then the clerk could come back to a future meeting and, increasingly, sketch out in more detail how those two days might work for feedback from Members. Is that agreed? Excellent.

[77] The Royal Welsh Show on 20 July is the proposed date for a committee visit. I understand last year we had the European Commissioner and there was very positive feedback from that session. On other sessions, I think that the Chair has had a number of meetings with some organisations. I’d be very keen to extend that to the committee as a whole, or at least those who are able and wish to attend. The important thing, I think, in terms of the degree of formality of what we do is—. I don’t want it to be any more formal than necessary but I do want that anything we’re told, unless specifically the organisation doesn’t wish this, should be available for that post-Brexit agriculture, rural development inquiry. But, other than that, I think we’re in the hands of our stakeholders as well as what we determine for a plan. I have asked the clerk just to look at a few possible options for the degree of formality of how we might do that. Jenny, did you have a question?

[78] Jenny Rathbone: I just wonder why you’ve chosen the twentieth. On the nineteenth the CLA have got a breakfast meeting on shaping the future of our economy in rural Wales, which, obviously, is quite interesting, which I plan to go to. At the Royal Welsh Show I hope we could promote the smarter energy for Wales report, in the context of farmers needing to think really clearly about how they’re going to diversify their income in the light of the new circumstances, because it is notable that, in Wales and, indeed, in the rest of the UK—in England anyway—farmers haven’t really grasped the renewable energy agenda in the way that they have in Germany, for example, as we saw when we went on a committee visit. I just feel that it’s a way of giving people hope that there are other ways of making money out of your land that are also important contributors to sustainability.

[79] Mark Reckless: Yes. Members may wish to choose to go for more than just the day. My understanding is that there are quite long lead times for the bookings with the Royal Welsh, and at least in terms of events we might host on our own stands—that’s the twentieth.

[80] Simon Thomas: Os caf i, jest ar y diwrnod—rwy’n deall, ar y pedwerydd ar bymtheg, fod yna nifer o bethau eraill yn digwydd. Rwyf i eisoes wedi llenwi’r diwrnod hwnnw, y pedwerydd ar bymtheg, gyda phethau rwyf i’n eu gwneud yn y sioe. So, byddwn i ddim yn gallu gwneud y diwrnod yna. Rwyf i yn gallu gwneud yr ugeinfed. Mae nifer o bethau eisoes ar y gweill.

Simon Thomas: If I may, just on the day—I understand that, on the nineteenth, there are a number of other things happening. I’ve already filled that day, the nineteenth, with things that I’m doing in the show. So, I wouldn’t be able to do that day. I can do the twentieth. There are a number of things already in the pipeline.

[81] Jest o ran y digwyddiad ei hunan, nid wyf yn gwybod a ydym ni’n meddwl ei gynnal yn safle’r Cynulliad. Os felly, rwy’n awgrymu nad yw hwnnw’n le da iawn ar gyfer rhywbeth ffurfiol iawn—fel pwyllgor, cymryd tystiolaeth ac ati. Ac eto, fel fan hyn, yn y sioe fawr, mae yna nifer o dyniadau gwahanol. Mae yna nifer o bobl yn trio cysylltu â chi; mae nifer o bobl yn eich gweld chi’n pasio’r stondin ac yn trio eich tynnu chi i mewn a gwneud i chi—. So, mae’n anodd ffocysu. Felly, byddwn i am gadw’r peth yn rhywbeth anffurfiol, os caf ddweud e fel yna, fel, er enghraifft, cwrdd â phrif randdeiliaid dros ginio, sy’n ffordd wedyn o eistedd o gwmpas jest i dderbyn sylwadau. Achos cychwyn y broses yw hwn, ontife? Mae’n fwy, i fi, o gyflwyno’r pwyllgor i’r rhanddeiliaid a fydd yn y sioe fawr.

Just in terms of the event itself, I’m not sure whether we’re thinking of holding it at the Assembly’s base there. If so, I suggest that that isn’t a very good place for a formal event, as a committee, to take evidence and so forth. Yet here, in the Royal Welsh, there are a number of other different attractions there. People are trying to contact you; you pass a stall and people are trying to bring you into that stall and make you—. So, it’s difficult to focus. So, I would want to keep it informal, if I can say that, like, for example, meeting stakeholders over lunch, which is a means then of sitting around and receiving comments. Because this is starting the process, isn’t it? For me, it’s more about presenting the committee to stakeholders who will be at the Royal Welsh.

[82] Mark Reckless: Alun, can I perhaps ask you to take us through some of the options for the twentieth in terms of what we could do?

[83] Mr Davidson: Yes, certainly. In the past, predecessor committees have done everything from holding formal meetings through to having sort of off-the-record briefings, as they did last year with Commissioner Hogan. We had quite a bit of feedback in the past from stakeholders, and it ties in with what Simon said, really, about the nature of the show. Less formal events tend to be sort of better received. It gives a wider range of stakeholders an opportunity to meet with Members. So, over the last two or three years one feature has been a stakeholder lunch where, effectively, the Chair provides an opening sort of remark in relation to a particular piece of work, perhaps, that’s ongoing, followed by a sort of buffet lunch in which stakeholders can mix with committee members.

[84] If we want to add a bit of focus this year on preparing for this work around agriculture post Brexit, then we could do something along the lines of having a short, perhaps private, round-table session with some key stakeholders where they could speak frankly with the committee, perhaps just prior to that lunch. We can have quite a focused session there just with a few selected stakeholders. In terms of how that is then recorded, of course, we could minute that, and there could be a minute of that meeting published if you wanted to build on that in the future. Otherwise, we start getting into the territory of it becoming more of a formal meeting, really.

[85] Mark Reckless: So, lunch followed by an informal round-table.

[86] Mr Davidson: One or the other, yes.

[87] Jenny Rathbone: Do the work first and then have lunch, probably.

[88] Mark Reckless: So, a formal round-table followed by lunch. Rural development, of course, as well as agriculture.

[89] Jenny Rathbone: Yes.

[90] Huw Irranca-Davies: Could I make one specific additional request at this early stage? When we bring together the people who we listen to in an informal lunch or whether it’s in an evidence session, particularly on agriculture, can we make sure, particularly at a time when we’re going to have to do a hell of a lot more with a hell of a lot less, that we also have people there who deal with things like water catchment management, natural resource planning and so on, because we’re still going to have to deal with floods, we’re still going to have to deal with all of the implications of that land management, whether it’s up at peat bogs, or all the way down to the—. Now, they’ve got to be at this table as well, otherwise we’re going to hear a very one-sided—understandably—but a farming agricultural, crop management, food production side, as opposed to the wider landscape management side. They’ve got to be in here, so that we can get the full view of what’s going on and how we’re going to manage it going forward.

[91] Mark Reckless: How large a number of stakeholders do we feel would be appropriate for a round-table of this type?

[92] Jenny Rathbone: When we’ve done these sorts of things in the past, we’ve had several tables, so that, I don’t know, there’s at least one committee member, or perhaps two, at each table, along with other people who we need to speak to, rather than having one huge table where few people actually get to speak, and then there’s a mechanism for feeding back.

[93] Mark Reckless: And would we have the staffing in terms of being able to take a minute from each of those tables?

[94] Mr Davidson: It would be possible, but the only sort of drawback, really, is the space that we’ve got at the Royal Welsh Show for doing that sort of—. Jenny’s quite right; she’s referring to some of the workshop sessions that the predecessor committee did, which I think did work well. I’m not sure whether we’d get away with that in the space we’ve got in the Royal Welsh Show, that’s all.

[95] Simon Thomas: And you won’t fit—[Inaudible.]

[96] Jenny Rathbone: You can fit four tables in that room.

[97] Mr Davidson: But that could be something the committee could look at doing separate to this. Once the inquiry’s under way, that could be a good way of gathering the evidence.

[98] Mark Reckless: Could it be split into two, with the agricultural or food production focus on one, and then the complementary, wider range of issues, including Huw’s suggestions, being at another table? Would that be doable, do we think, operationally?

[99] Mr Davidson: We could do that, or we could have two panels, perhaps, although there is some benefit in having stakeholders from both sides at the one table, really; you get a lot of information from that.

[100] Huw Irranca-Davies: I think there’s an interesting philosophical approach, as well as a practical approach in this committee—whether we meet people in silos, or whether we engage on big, strategic issues that this committee can actually do very well. Curiously, I think, my initial thoughts, Chair, would be that we’ll need to tend to do things in a coherent manner and then split into silos to focus down narrowly on what it would mean post Brexit for agricultural subsidies, what it would mean post Brexit for management of our natural systems—the more coherent approach, so, also, that stakeholders can see the way that we deal with this is in a strategic way.

[101] Simon Thomas: Dyna’r pwynt roeddwn i eisiau ei wneud. I fi, mae’r digwyddiad yma—. Nid wyf yn disgwyl derbyn lot o—mae pawb yn dechrau meddwl am y peth-gyfarwyddyd a gwybodaeth sydd ddim ar gael beth bynnag. I fi, pwrpas y digwyddiad, yn gymaint ag unrhyw beth arall, yw ennill hyder yr holl randdeiliaid yma i fod yn rhan o’r broses rŷm ni’n mynd i’w harwain fel pwyllgor wedyn—felly, cyflwyno’n hunain; deall eu problemau nhw; deall eu pryderon nhw; dweud wrthyn nhw, gymaint ag y gallwn ni, y ffordd byddwn ni’n gweithio ar y pynciau yma, fel roedd Huw yn amlinellu, fel eu bod nhw’n deall yr agwedd rŷm ni’n mynd i gymryd hefyd. Felly, nid ydym yn mynd i edrych arno fe yn y ffordd silos yna; rŷm ni’n mynd i edrych arno yn strategol. Felly, mae yn gymaint am gyflwyno y gwaith rŷm ni’n mynd i’w wneud fel pwyllgor ag ydyw am wrando arnyn nhw. Rwy’n meddwl bod modd gwneud hynny mewn sefyllfa, os oes lle i round-table tebyg i hyn, lle mae Aelod i bob dau neu dri o bobl o’r tu allan, a lle bod modd cynnal sgwrs am ryw awr fel yna, ac wedyn torri i gael y cinio mwy anffurfiol. Gallwch chi ddim gwneud mwy yn y sioe; mae pobl yn mynd i fynd off i wneud rhywbeth arall yna, neu maen nhw’n hwyr yn dod, neu bydd rhywun yn gofyn i fi fynd i wneud rhywbeth arall. Fedrwch chi ddim gwneud mwy na hynny, felly a gawn ni fod yn realistig?

Simon Thomas: That’s the point that I wanted to make. For me, this event—. I don’t expect to receive much—everybody’s starting to think about it—direction and information that isn’t already out there. For me, the purpose of the event, as much as anything else, is to gain the confidence of all these stakeholders to be a part of the process that we will lead on as a committee afterwards. So, we would want to introduce ourselves, understand their problems, understand their concerns, and tell them, as much as we can, the way in which we will work on these issues, as Huw outlined, so that they understand the approach that we will take as well. So, we’re not going to look at it with a silo mentality; we’re going to look at it strategically. So, it is as much about the work that we’re going to do as a committee as it is about listening to them. I think there is a way of doing that in a situation, if there is room for a round-table like this, where there’s a Member for every two or stakeholders from outside, and where’s there’s a way of having a conversation for about an hour, and then break for a more informal lunch. You can’t do more in the show; people will go off to do something else, or they’re late arriving, or someone will come to ask me to go to do something else. You can’t do more than that, so can we be realistic about these things?

[102] Mark Reckless: Thank you. David.

[103] David Melding: I would like to amplify what Simon has said. I think this event needs to be a good introduction. Why not have an hour or an hour and a half as a sort of open-mike, where we’re the audience, and we say to people, ‘Come and speak to us for five minutes’ or whatever—10 minutes—and we just listen to them? And you say something at the end of that, and then we’re into a buffet lunch where we just mill around.

10:15

[104] I think that that would send a good signal: we listen. That’s the first thing we need to do: just sit down, shut up and listen. I don’t know; it might work.

[105] Mark Reckless: That’s a very good idea. One conversation I had with the clerk yesterday was just looking at, yes, agriculture and rural development post Brexit, but we want a strategic planning approach. I think, to try and reconcile that, actually, in planning and proceeding with this particular inquiry, let’s apply a critique of how we’re planning and how we’re operating around that inquiry as part of the work that we do with the Institute for Government. Say, next Wednesday, the clerk comes with perhaps more of a plan for how that inquiry can proceed, let’s question and critique ourselves about how we’re developing that as an inquiry and have that feeding in to the strategic planning process.

[106] I think we’re quite pressed for time in terms of the Royal Welsh Show and communicating with stakeholders, but would Members want to agree the approach that David proposed there, where we don’t need all the people to turn up at once, but we book them in for five-minute slots and we’re there listening, and then perhaps try and sum up at the end of that and we then transition into the informal lunch? Is that agreed as an approach?

[107] Assembly Members: Yes.

[108] Mark Reckless: Excellent, thank you.

[109] David Melding: Could I ask, because some of us will want to travel from Cardiff, like the secretariat, I presume, if, in the interest of sustainability, common transport could be arranged? I also hate driving, so if I can put my own interests as a—.

[110] Mark Reckless: Are we all able to attend on Wednesday, 20 July? Is that a date that works for all?

[111] Jenny Rathbone: I might be keen to hear of camping opportunities because I don’t think I can bear to travel back to Cardiff on the Tuesday and then come back again on the Wednesday. It’s such a tedious drive, but perhaps the clerk can advise me on where I can pitch a tent. There certainly won’t be any bed-and-breakfast accommodation available.

[112] Mark Reckless: We’ll have common transport for those who want to come up earlier.

[113] Simon Thomas: There’s the young farmers’ camp, but I wouldn’t recommend it. [Laughter.]

[114] Huw Irranca-Davies: You wouldn’t get much sleep.

[115] Jenny Rathbone: For sleeping probably not. Some nice farm might accommodate me.

[116] Simon Thomas: You could be in Llandrindod.

[117] Mark Reckless: One other issue I wanted to raise with the committee today, and some of this came out of the Finance Committee yesterday, is that the Finance Committee will be doing the legislative work on those two taxes that are being devolved. The stamp duty land tax is going to be taken by the Finance Committee, which didn’t feel that it also had capacity to look at the second tax, which is the landfill tax. So, I think in the Business Committee on Tuesday, which I will be on until that meeting, although I’ll then be passing up that role, there’s likely to be a discussion about which committee of the Assembly is appropriate to take that landfill tax. Clearly, it falls within the environmental area of the committee. If the Finance Committee isn’t doing it, it might be thought that this committee would be the other as the subject specialist. However, we’ve also, on the Business Committee, set up a reserve, now called the ‘external affairs committee’, which is potentially able to take legislative work where other committees, which might normally take that, feel that they’re too overburdened. I just wondered whether you had any comment on what the protocol is now understood to be as to where these issues would fall for committees.

[118] Mr Davidson: My understanding, based on experience in the last Assembly, is that it’s usual for the Business Committee to consult with the relevant subject committee or committees around their capacity to take a particular piece of legislation. In the specifics of this case, my understanding is that the landfill disposals tax Bill would be introduced just before the autumn recess. As it stands at the moment—

[119] Mark Reckless: By ‘autumn recess’, do you mean the half-term recess?

[120] Mr Davidson: Yes, the half-term recess, towards the end of October. The committee doesn’t have, as far as I’m aware, of course—. It might be something on which you’d want to probe the relevant Cabinet Secretary when she comes before the committee, but in terms of the Government’s legislative programme, I’m not really aware of much legislation heading in the direction of this committee during the course of this Assembly. There is potentially something around planning consolidation, although that might follow a different procedure. There’s nothing firm on the books, so I don’t think it would be unreasonable for the committee to accept this piece of legislation.

[121] Simon Thomas: Rwy’n derbyn y pwynt yna o safbwynt hynny. Yr unig beth fyddwn i’n gofyn i’r pwyllgor ei ystyried—ac rwyf yn gwisgo dwy het, rwy’n gwybod; rwyf ar y Pwyllgor Busnes fy hun—nid ydym yn disgwyl llawer. Yn sicr yn y datganiad deddfwriaethol gan y Prif Weinidog, nid oedd unrhyw beth arall a fyddai’n dod i’r pwyllgor yma, ond mae gennym ni dri darn o waith deddfwriaethol newydd i’w pasio y bydd angen i ni eu dilyn i fyny a chadw llygad arnynt—wel, dau ddarn yn bendant. O ran yr un cenedlaethau’r dyfodol, yn sicr bydd gan y Pwyllgor Cyllid ddiddordeb yn hynny achos mae’n gorwedd, actually, gyda chyllid a llywodraeth leol nawr, ond mae yna sawl darn o waith rydym eisiau eu dilyn i fyny. Hefyd, synnwn i’n fawr na fydd y gwaith rŷm ni newydd fod yn trafod yn cychwyn yn y sioe fawr, o gwmpas cynnal cefn gwlad ar ôl Brexit, yn mynd i fod yn ddarn o waith swmpus iawn, iawn, ac yn mynd i fod yn eithaf eang yn y ffordd mae’n mynd i gael ei wneud.

Simon Thomas: I accept that point. The only thing that I would ask the committee to consider—and I am wearing two hats, I know, because I’m on the Business Committee myself—that we don’t expect much. Certainly in the legislative statement from the First Minister, there wasn’t anything else that was coming to this committee, but we do have three pieces of new legislative work that we will need to follow up and keep an eye on—well, two pieces specifically. With the future generations legislation, the Finance Committee would certainly have an interest in that because it actually lies with finance and local government now, but there are a few pieces of work that we would want to follow up. Also, I would be very surprised if the work we’ve been discussing starting at the Royal Welsh, about maintaining rural Wales after Brexit, didn’t turn out to be quite a substantial piece of work and quite broad in the way that it’s done.

[122] Felly, rwy’n agored i’r peth, ond mae hwn yn datganoli treth, ac yn ôl beth rwy’n deall, nid yw’n trafod yr egwyddorion sydd y tu ôl i dirlenwi neu bwrpas tirlenwi—mae hynny i gyd yn y system eisoes. Rydym, yn syml iawn, yn datganoli’r broses a gwneud yn siŵr bod y Welsh Revenue Authority mewn sefyllfa i ddelio â hynny. Mae yn broses, efallai, nid wyf yn gwybod a fydd o gymaint o ddiddordeb, mewn gwirionedd, i aelodau’r pwyllgor. Mi ddylai fynd i’r Pwyllgor Cyllid, fe wnaf gyfaddef hynny fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid, ond, yn syml iawn, nid ydym ni’n gallu ei wneud ef oherwydd mae yna ddarn enfawr o waith yn dod atom ni, sef deddf enfawr ynglŷn â stamp duty, a hefyd mae’r gyllideb yn dod atom ni. Mae’r pwyllgor wrth gefn, fel rydych newydd gyfeirio ato, yn bosibiliad arall. Ond, fy nheimlad i yw bod gennym job o waith pwysig iawn, iawn, iawn yn gosod allan beth rydym yn ei wneud fel pwyllgor a chynnwys rhanddeiliaid ac ennill eu hyder nhw. Wedyn, os ydym yn delio â deddfwriaeth, rwyf jest yn eich rhybuddio chi, y rhai nad ydych wedi bod yma o’r blaen, mae’n gallu llyncu lot o amser.

Therefore, I’m open to this, but this devolves taxes and, from what I understand, it doesn’t discuss the principles behind landfill or the purpose of landfill—all of that is in the system already. Simply, we are devolving the process and ensuring that the Welsh Revenue Authority is in a situation to deal with it. It is a process, perhaps, that I’m not sure will be of that much interest to the members of the committee. It should go to the Finance Committee, I’d confess that as Chair of the committee, but, simply, we can’t do it because we have a massive piece of work coming to us, namely a massive Bill in relation to stamp duty, and also the budget is coming us. There is a reserve committee, which you referred to, and that is another possibility. My feeling is that we have an important job of work to do in setting out what we’re doing as a committee and including the stakeholders and earning their trust. If we’re dealing with legislation, I’m just warning you, those who haven’t been here before, that it can swallow up a lot of time.

[123] Mark Reckless: Jenny.

[124] Jenny Rathbone: I’m not averse to the Reserve Policy and Legislation Committee hosting this Bill and looking at the line-by-line scrutiny, but there are lots of perverse incentives in the way in which the landfill tax currently works. You can see that in the legacy report. Therefore, I think it’s really important that the landfill tax, when it goes to become law, isn’t one that we’ve then got to unpick afterwards. So, I think there’s still quite a lot of work that either this committee would need to do or that committee would need to do to look at how we best use that tax to meet our climate change obligations, really, in the most effective way.

[125] Simon Thomas: I don’t disagree with Jenny on that, but my understanding is that they’re not looking at the fundamentals. It’s a devolution. It’s a process, an administrative process of devolution, rather than a re-look at the fundamentals. If there’s a different message coming out from Government, you know—. We haven’t seen the Bill.

[126] Jenny Rathbone: Okay, but ought we not then, as the committee responsible for scrutinising this area, to flag up the need for the Government to review how we’re doing it? I appreciate the Government doesn’t want to have a lot of change for change’s sake, but I think there are good reasons why there should be a programme for change in order to make it more sustainable.

[127] Simon Thomas: A gaf i jest ofyn ar hynny, felly, a ydym yn debyg o gael y Gweinidog i mewn cyn penderfyniad terfynol ar ble mae’r Bil dreth yn mynd? A yw hynny’n rhywbeth, efallai, y gallem ofyn? Os ydym yn cael y Gweinidog i mewn yn weddol gynnar achos dyna’r arfer. Wrth gwrs, nid ydym wedi cael y cyfarfod strategol, ond mae’n arfer cael y Gweinidog i mewn yn weddol gynnar gyda phwyllgor newydd a gofyn i’r Gweinidog, ‘Beth yw eich blaenoriaethau chi, y ffordd rydych yn mynd?’ Gallem ofyn yn benodol bryd hynny, wedyn, ‘Beth yw’r dreth yma a’r ffordd rydych yn mynd i ymwneud â hi?’ Efallai y gallem fod â mwy o syniad, wedyn, ynglŷn â beth yw bwriad y Llywodraeth y tu ôl i hyn.

Simon Thomas: May I just ask on that, therefore, whether we are likely to have the Minister in before making a final decision on where this tax Bill goes? Is that something that we could ask? If we could get the Cabinet Secretary in soon, because that is the practice. I know we haven’t had the strategic meeting, but it is the usual practice to have the Minister in relatively quickly when starting a new committee and to ask, ‘What are your priorities and which direction will you take?’ So, we could ask that specific question then: ‘What is this tax and how do you intend to deal with it?’ Then we could have a better idea of the Government’s intention with regard to this.

[128] Huw Irranca-Davies: Chair, just to add to that, in principle, if it’s discussing the substance of it, the policy implications of it in terms of Wales, I think that’s something that many members of the committee would be very interested in. If it’s purely looking at the mechanisms of devolving the finance Bill implications of this, it’s something that feels a little bit odd. So, maybe it is the right the solution to get some more clarity on this. I’m not completely averse to it, but it just seems an odd fit, and you are right: I think, here we are, in the first couple of weeks of the starting of this committee, and I suspect we’ll find our workload on the policy side of things, and your role in terms of leading some of the agendas will be quite weighty, and then this might come along and be quite a significant little piece that pulls away from our core business. But I’m not completely averse to it; I honestly say that. If it was on the substance of it and the policy implications, I could see more of a reasoning. But it doesn’t seem to be that.

[129] Mark Reckless: I don’t know whether the committee, whether this is a public session, where we want to be questioning the Minister in detail about this, or whether this is something for me and/or the clerk to seek greater clarity on, and then feed back to Members. I suppose I’ve got two points. Firstly, on the landfill tax experience, it’s not a tax I’m aware of in detail, but what I do understand about it is there has been a very strong European Union content in this area about a requirement to disincentivise landfill, and this tax is a key mechanism that makes it less attractive for local authorities and others to send waste to landfill. I think there probably is the strategic question, actually: are we just about devolving the tax and technically keeping it the same as it is now, or is this an area where we can look at the principles behind it, and what’s the policy objective, and what way would the tax have to operate to fulfil that? So, shall I perhaps try, with staff, to get more answers, including from Welsh Government, on that, before we take a decision? And perhaps at Business Committee on Tuesday, if we just seek to keep this open, if it’s going to be the second half of next term, rather than making a decision between us and the reserve committee now, that’s something we keep open and take a future view on.

[130] I will just say that I wouldn’t want at this point to say to the Business Committee, ‘Oh, we’re so overburdened with work we couldn’t possibly take this’. I understand that Finance Committee and, as Chair, Simon doesn’t want that, and I support that decision for the Finance Committee, but given that we’re looking at one substantive inquiry to start with, and then strategic planning, and, yes, we have things we need to follow through from our legacy report, I’m nervous of giving the impression at this point that we really don’t want to take on work because we’re already so busy we can’t. The Business Committee discussion was quite a lot around that, and what happened to the Health and Social Care Committee in the last Assembly, and the need, when there’s lots of legislation coming through, and it can’t really do any scrutiny of anything, for a sort of reserve at that point. I just think that leaping to that reserve committee as our first response—I’d just be a bit cautious about the message that would send. But I think the view is we don’t need to take a decision now. The Business Committee should keep that open and we should try and get greater clarity and understanding as to how this tax Bill would work. Thank you.

[131] The next meeting we have, on Wednesday—

[132] Simon Thomas: Sori, Gadeirydd—a gaf i jest godi un peth? Un peth y gwnes i ei grybwyll wrth drafod y Ddeddf oedd ein bod ni’n cael y Gweinidog mewn yn weddol gynnar, beth bynnag, jest i drio ei holi hi am ei blaenoriaethau a beth yw ei bwriadau hi. Byddwn i’n meddwl bod gwerth gwneud hynny, serch ein bod ni’n mynd i ffwrdd i gael cyfarfod strategol. Mae’n dal yn well, rwy’n meddwl, i jest dechrau holi’r Gweinidog a dechrau cael teimlad o’r ffordd y mae’n mynd o gwmpas pethau.

Simon Thomas: Sorry, Chair—could I just raise one other issue? One thing that I mentioned in discussing the Act was that we have the Minister in at an early stage, to try and question her about her priorities and what her intentions are. I would think that it would be valuable to do that, even though we’re going away to have a strategic meeting. I think it’s still valuable to start questioning the Minister and have a feeling for the way that she is going to go about things.

[133] Mark Reckless: So, currently, on our draft programme, we have that for 14 September; that’s subject to the Minister’s confirmation. So, would you be proposing that that’s not early enough, and we should seek to see whether there’s any chance the Minister might be able to join us next Wednesday, or do you think the first meeting when we come back is satisfactory?

[134] Simon Thomas: The first meeting would be satisfactory, when we come back, although I think we should at least invite her to the Royal Welsh Show.

[135] David Melding: Give her the option.

[136] Mark Reckless: Invite her to—.

[137] Simon Thomas: The Royal Welsh Show.

[138] Mark Reckless: Yes.

[139] Simon Thomas: I doubt if she would be available for it, but we could at least say that that’s part—

[140] Mark Reckless: Good. So, could we issue a formal invitation to the Minister for 14 September, and also an invitation, at least formally, to join us, if she’s not otherwise engaged—

[141] Simon Thomas: Even if she joins us for the stakeholder lunch, that would be—

[142] Mark Reckless: Yes, and I think if you were available for lunch, it would be wonderful to have the Minister there. Diaries may preclude, but let’s give that—

[143] Simon Thomas: I doubt if she wants to do an open mike for five minutes, but you never know.

10:30

[144] Mark Reckless: I was going to propose that our next meeting, which relates to the internal organisation of the committee, would involve further discussion of agriculture and rural development post Brexit, but also quite a self-critical approach to the committee as to how we plan that inquiry. We may also have more detail about how the two days in Pembrokeshire could look, although there’s only limited time for getting responses from people who may host events between that. Do Members agree with that proposal to take the next meeting in private and then, once we come back on 14 September, beginning with an inquiry, so that we will be in public henceforth, except where we determine otherwise?

[145] Jenny Rathbone: That’s fine, but I think it should be three hours, and not three and a half hours—

[146] Mark Reckless: Yes, it’s up to three and a half hours. I don’t think it’s likely we’re going to go to that three and a half. I’d have thought, actually, it would be more likely to be, you know, two or two and a half rather than even three. It depends how much Members have to talk about. Good.

10:31

Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod ar 13 Gorffennaf
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting on 13 July

Cynnig:

Motion:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o’r cyfarfod ar ddydd Mercher 13 Gorffennaf yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the meeting on Wednesday 13 July in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.

[147] Mark Reckless: In which case, could I propose formally the motion that, for Wednesday 13 July, we take that meeting in private? I propose we do that on the basis we’ll be discussing the internal business of the committee. Are there any objections to that? So, that is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.

[148] Mark Reckless: One final point, administratively, I wanted to raise with Members: are we content for the clerk to operate a Twitter account on behalf of the committee, putting into the public domain some decisions and actions and perhaps, for instance, noting the Royal Welsh Show programme and invitation to stakeholders? Yes? Then, you are authorised to do that. Does anyone have any other business? In which case I close this meeting. Diolch.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 10:32.
The meeting ended at 10:32.